So, traps.

Anything related to the Lost Labyrinth game series.
sleekie
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So, traps.

Post by sleekie » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:42 pm

In the older versions, traps were serious business, but Trap Lore was a thing. In this version, Trap Lore is not really a thing, so what are we supposed to do about traps? Pit traps in particular are terrible since they strip the player of everything the level would've rewarded; healing, mana, treasure, merchants, staff piece rooms and experience are all gone. I get that maybe Trap Lore was seen as a no-brainer, but it was a no-brainer because traps suck and there's very little else to combat them with.

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Re: So, traps.

Post by zefz » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:25 pm

I tuned down the deadliness of traps because they seemed too dangerous. Might be they are too weak now. Traps get more dangerous deeper down in the Labyrinth.

Trap Lore is both a trait and a Lore type. The Lore allows you to detect and avoid traps, while the trait increases lore vs traps and increased trap detection range by 1 (2 tiles away instead of only 1).

Rune Traps can get quite nasty as they can fill the level with flames, ice cubes or poison clouds.

sleekie
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Re: So, traps.

Post by sleekie » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:45 pm

Fair enough. I always thought the problem was how lethal traps were, rather than how effective a band-aid Trap Lore was. I'd noticed they didn't bite as hard as they used to, but I'm not that far in the dungeon yet.

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Max
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Re: So, traps.

Post by Max » Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:50 pm

sleekie wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:42 pm
...Pit traps in particular are terrible since they strip the player of everything the level would've rewarded;
This is a really good point.

It seem weird that a simple pit would be far more long term damaging then any other trap.
What if it was only half experience for getting to the next level via pit trap?
...or even if it was half experience with double the current pit trap damage?
...or something else, any suggestions?



Talking about Trap Lore.
I also used to pick the older version of Trap Lore a lot.
But not for any of the things that the current Trap Lore is offering.
Late game I could set up trap detection using magic, Trap Lore was useful for the automatic trap disarming (no longer available).
When I am moving fast I will walk right over traps, even ones that have been detected, even with Trap Lore, even with a trap disarming kit waiting in the backpack.

If Trap Lore is not going to be automatically disarming traps anymore then could we have the trap disarming kit do it automatically? I imagine it would be something like this...
1. A trap is about to go off.
2. The trap searches the players backpack for a trap disarming kit.
3. If a kit was found then lower it's durability and stop procedure Else continue and fire the trap as normal.

That would make Trap Lore good again and the disarming kit it comes with .

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sleekie
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Re: So, traps.

Post by sleekie » Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Well, that still wouldn't be great because there are traps everywhere and you'd want to keep the kit for the most troublesome ones. I agree the current Trap Lore isn't that great because in most cases seeing the trap doesn't change anything; it's not like there's an alternate route and you have to step on it anyway. You're better off spending that CP on half-paying for Agile or Danger Sense. Or just buy Second Wind.

I overstated the annoyance of pit traps since they only really cost xp, but for a low-dex build...well, I don't do that but I'd imagine they're pretty obnoxious.

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Re: So, traps.

Post by zefz » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:44 pm

Auto-disarming detected traps while carrying a trap-disarm toolkit sounds like a good feature to have.
Well, that still wouldn't be great because there are traps everywhere and you'd want to keep the kit for the most troublesome ones
This could be solved by having an option to enabled/disable auto-disarming traps. A toggle mode like Stealth.
I agree the current Trap Lore isn't that great because in most cases seeing the trap doesn't change anything;
You have +30% chance to avoid a detected trap. In addition you can disarm the trap if you have the toolkit.

The trait Trap Lore also gives +20 Lore bonus in the Trap category, which gives +20% trap detection and an additional +20% chance to avoid traps.

sleekie
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Re: So, traps.

Post by sleekie » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:48 pm

This could be solved by having an option to enabled/disable auto-disarming traps. A toggle mode like Stealth.
thinking about it, this is a good idea if only because it means disarming a target trap is less keystrokes, but it doesn't really lend itself to actually making the trait more attractive or the kit more useful. You can't afford to go less than nuclear on traps, because you can't afford to lose your level xp over and over. 'Maybe' spotting it isn't good enough, the only solution is having so much trap-dodge that you can evade falling 99% of the time, which generally means plenty of both Dex and Perception. Trap Lore doesn't mitigate the issue enough to be worth spending 1 CP on. Maybe I'm missing something here, but simply not dropping the player to the next floor might be the better solution, or less traps that hit a bit harder? They're so saturating that the trap kit is only good for pit traps because pits and runes are by far the worst traps, and you can't disarm a rune trap. Perhaps I'm being too paranoid and a wider margin of error would be okay, but later levels are massive and therefore contain huge numbers of traps.
You have +30% chance to avoid a detected trap. In addition you can disarm the trap if you have the toolkit.

The trait Trap Lore also gives +20 Lore bonus in the Trap category, which gives +20% trap detection and an additional +20% chance to avoid traps.
That still doesn't change anything regarding your decision at that moment. If you want to deal with any given trap, you need the Dex and Perc stats, not a trap kit and the Trap Lore trait. If it's a pit trap, you need to see it, seeing half of them isn't good enough, and while being able to disarm pit traps is nice, Dex works on every trap. Effectively what the trait does is provide a buffer of time in which you can buy other stats that aren't Dex and Perc if you didn't want them for anything else, which you probably do. If the trap you saw isn't a pit trap, you probably won't disarm it because you don't want to waste trap kit durability and will tread on it anyway. With high Dex, it won't hit you, without it, it will. The trait just doesn't seem to interact meaningfully enough to alter your play. If it actually mitigated the effect of traps, providing a sensible alternative to 'stack Dex and Perc asap', that'd be a different matter.

I guess on the first few levels, 'only falling in some pit traps' would mean not falling in at least one per level. At only 1CP, it's at least the cheapest option, but it also feels so shaky that it's a waste of that CP.

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Re: So, traps.

Post by zefz » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:15 am

Here are a few other suggestions on how we could change the mechanics for Trap Lore:
  • Allow the trap-tool-kit to disarm rune traps if you have Trap Lore
  • Make tool-kits much less likely to break with Trap Lore
  • Do not require toolkit with Trap Lore, but make it a chance of success based on a ability/lore (toolkit still has 100%)
  • Currently, there is always a 1-5% chance to trigger traps, maybe allow 100% dodge chance with Trap Lore
Perhaps rework some mechanics for trap dodging:
* When a trap is not detected, it is mainly Luck based to avoid it
* If a trap is detected, it is mainly Dexterity based instead

I also want to differentiate between Trap Lore (the trait) and Trap lore (the Lore type). Perhaps renaming the trait to Trap Mastery or something like that. In addition it would be nice if trap lore (the Lore type) would give some other benefit than just increasing trap detection and dodge.

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Max
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Re: So, traps.

Post by Max » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:01 am

zefz wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:44 pm
This could be solved by having an option to enabled/disable auto-disarming traps. A toggle mode like Stealth.
Sounds great :D
Yes please.
sleekie wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:48 pm
You can't afford to go less than nuclear on traps, because you can't afford to lose your level xp over and over.
It does sound like pit traps are the problem (as opposed to all traps).
Maybe other solutions would be overkill.
What about a new trait that stopped all pit traps, and only pit traps, 'light footed' or what ever.
...another option would be to just give the player the level up anyway.
zefz wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:15 am
  • Allow the trap-tool-kit to disarm rune traps if you have Trap Lore
  • Make tool-kits much less likely to break with Trap Lore
  • Do not require toolkit with Trap Lore, but make it a chance of success based on a ability/lore (toolkit still has 100%)
  • Currently, there is always a 1-5% chance to trigger traps, maybe allow 100% dodge chance with Trap Lore
Perhaps rework some mechanics for trap dodging:
* When a trap is not detected, it is mainly Luck based to avoid it
* If a trap is detected, it is mainly Dexterity based instead
Sounds good :)
zefz wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:15 am
In addition it would be nice if trap lore (the Lore type) would give some other benefit than just increasing trap detection and dodge.
Maybe add a new golem monster made from trap parts :D
It could count as both golem and trap, destroy golem would work,
fighting it could apply trap lore (and maybe some other lore too).
If it's asleep you could try to kill it with disarm trap.

...or... just apply trap lore to an already existing golem / monster.
Like that treasure chest monster thing. Maybe trap lore could detect them too ...and... maybe successfully disarming a detected treasure chest monster (before it attacks) could change it into a normal treasure chest? :lol: I'm just daydream here. :roll: but maybe


Talking about pit traps again, playing as a witch we used to have a broomstick for permanent flight. I don't remember... was this immunity to pit traps?
If so, and if it's still in the game, then maybe movimg broomstick into an earlier spell circle would help?
There is also the air magic equivalent thats not permanent.

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Re: So, traps.

Post by zefz » Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:31 pm

I'm playing around with the traps mechanics and came up with differentiating between detecting and identifying traps. You can find a trap but need trap lore to identify what kind of trap it is. Rune traps are harder to identify.

Trap Lore trait has been renamed to Trap Expertise and unlocks auto-disarming ability. Disarming traps has now a very high chance of increasing your trap lore. Identifying a trap will now increase the chance to avoid it by 30%.

For undetected traps, your avoid chance is now limited by 25% + 1% per luck (i.e even though you have extremely good dodge, you also need a bit of luck to avoid traps you have not detected).

Finally if Pit Traps are the real danger, then another solution could be to simply reduce the amount of pit traps that appear.

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