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Local multiplayer

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:38 am
by krmos
Hello, I'm Marc from France. Thank you for this great Rogue Like Sequel !

Do you think you will reimplent the local multi-player option ? Lost Labyrinth is one of the rare rogue like to have this option.
And if I can suggest an idea for the local multi-player. It will be interesting to have the option : when one player die then game is over.

Thanks again for this great game. Sorry for my bad English.


Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:33 pm
by zefz
Local multiplayer is actually implemented in the code, but disabled in the release. I think local multiplayer would be difficult to balance (more players = easier game right?).

If this is a feature players actually want I can add it into the game (I thought nobody used it, I myself haven't at least ;) )

Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:28 am
by zefz
I've given this a little more thought. I've already planned Mercenaries (hired help) which could fit into this feature. In old Lost Labyrinth these were the adventurers you could hire in the tavern room sometimes found in the Labyrinth.

Mercenaries are other characters with skills and abilities that join you for some share of the gold. Unlike summons, you can also equip them and they can learn new experience levels when delving the Labyrinth.They cannot be dispelled by enemy casters and they do not disappear after a number of turns as summoned creatures do.

Mercenaries can die without the protagonist (the main player) losing the game. If the main player dies, the game is over (even if you have many summons or mercenaries alive). My though was that you can optionally start with 1 to 3 mercenaries at your side.

I think maybe each Mercenary at start costs 1 CP for balance reasons? Each mercenary also wants a share of the gold, taking 30% of gold found (effectively giving -30% to the Gold Find attribute as a "Mercenary Tax"). This means having 3 Mercenaries would cost 3 CP and they would take 90% of all the gold you find.

The Mercenary trait halves this "tax" while Charisma trait could reduce it further by 10% (so a character build with both Mercenary and Charisma could hire mercenaries at only 10% cost).

Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:25 pm
by kui
is it possible to 'build' mercenaries ?
or if it was random generate/pre-made, can player choose point distribution when level up at least ?
if so, this feature enhance tactical aspect.

in extended version, player could choose up to 4 chars to form balanced party.
they are all avatar and on the same condition as to build and progression.
so it allowed assigning distinct role to each member.
though it takes so much longer to proceed.

Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:48 pm
by kui
another important question.
does mercenary always need player's control ?
i mean, the summon/multiplayer system of extended version was inevitably tedious to keep on since player needed to input every action for them.

i think its better be semi-bot like.
preferably usual behavior is just following player char and fight along side with automatically. (say, 'following mode')
this is similar to Nethack (it's pet has really descent AI. it could even learn by rewarding or giving thing after success of specific action.) but never abandon master.
and player can order if needed. by pressing hotkey or clicking 'order' button to enter 'full control mode'.

Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:37 pm
by zefz
Mercenaries could easily be customized by the player (at least those you would begin with at the start). Creating a similar experience as old Lost Labyrinth where you could create a custom balanced party.

I actually thought about adding an AI to summoned creatures, but it adds some complexity with cases like these:
* What if you want the creature to go first before you to tank for you?
* Creatures with abilities like healing og ranged spells that cost mana, when should they use these?
* What happens when player falls in a pit trap or teleporter, should the summon move along with the player? (what about the other-way around?)

Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:32 pm
by kui
firstly, i think its better take simplest ways in both modes.

in 'following mode', henchmen won't start fighting on their own.

they are always following like shadows and start fighting only after player's avatar did (by entering into avatar's current/nearest grid then start attacking to same target). no first take nor initiative for them.

and as to routing, they always follows avatar in any condition. this includes transition of floors.

when avatar had bad time (like trapped in pit or web), and if henchman had superior ability to resolve the situation, how about they stand aside but their skill is automatically adapted as if they used it to help avatar.
say, by adding half of henchman's success rate to avatar's,
or doing calculation internally and just showing message of the process and result.

only one exception is when he/she got transferred to distant place (by monster's ability/skill while helping combat.) in that case, there are 2 possible way to handle such situation.

1. they do nothing and wait till avatar comes to pick them up.
2. automatically search path and try to reach avatar. this involves least, but inevitable combat for them. so they prefer safest way (try to use 'known' route for there are no enemies left. even if it takes more time). this sounds too complex though.

optionally, it might be good idea to let avatar have some kind of mean to 'summon' henchmen right in the side of him. (along with 1. maybe up to 3 times per floor level)

as for ability/spell/item usage of henchmen in following mode (AI driven), i think its better stick to simpler way.

for fighter type, they have far less or no MP, so basically they use only potions but its only when desperately needed. or just try to flee from current combat and use less powerful ranged weapon (if any) from behind.
if he was archer type, as long as arrows left, he tries to stay behind (i mean, nearest to avatar to keep range) and shoots current enemy. i mean, he does opposite thing to melee fighter.

as for caster, there are roughly 2 types. mage and healer.
basically they take nearest position to avatar and try to help avatar with attacking spell of lowest-cost.
but try to 'disable' enemy if current enemy was obviously stronger and affordable.
they start to use melee or ranged weapon after mana becomes scarce.
(but they are not fighter anyway, it might be better put them away automatically when mana reserve is too low.)

caster with healing ability:
casters who has any healing spell becomes far less aggressive (almost none) about attacking (including attack spells) to preserve mana when healing is needed for avatar. and try to use healing when needed but in cost-efficiency manner. (i.e. use white magic's instead of basic magic's)

while in "full control mode", player can use henchmen in any order, for any purpose.

like as tank (first attacker and meat shield), mass-damage dealer on entering new level (by higher level spells), utility (mapping, scouting, bartering and so on.), medic (healing) or helper (use rope on avatar who trapped in pit, burn web down by lit torch and so on). cuz its just same with Extended version's.

so player needs to switch to full control mode when he/she wanted to use henchman fully and independently.

Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:43 pm
by kui
secondly, the problem of basic life line. food and water.

in following mode, they are like half-witted. no killing, no take, no gain. so have no ability to sustain self unless adding means to resolve this issue.
disabling hunger and thirst only for henchmen is not only unnatural and too much but it breaks general rule of laby. so there needs to consider other way.

there is already old mercenary system. they take automatically share of gold.
i think this is the way to go for them getting food and water as well.

whenever chance of getting food from monster's drop and there was a water to drink which avatar didn't, they take automatically. its like 'in turns' manner but not in greedy way.
in this moment, it might be good for AI being possible to move to target grid (i mean, if it was enough near) to fulfill their needs. (but this is on feature possibility again. as it sounds more complex.)

also, there is ordinary way of 'sitting'.
of course temporal use of 'full control mode' covers this well.

it seems full management is on plan, then there is no problem for player giving/allocating food, and water with 'refresh' spell of water magic's whenever possible.
if henchman was always following and staying closer. it will be a lot easier.
this is the main reason why i set their primal position from avatar always to be close. (the importance of 'following' behavior)

the ideal is making additional option for party specific aspect of behavior by setting rules of sharing for AI.
like how to treat if there was a chance to getting food or water.
for example,
a. first serve, first come. (if avatar ignored, then henchman takes.)
b. player's avatar takes all but goes to henchman in turns
c. effects automatically being divided
(ideal way is all of these rules could get stacked at the same time. i mean, player can tick any of them. to form 'wiser' AI rule to lessen tedious part of inputs.)

also, i think it needs to be informed by special messages. (and preferably, with sound fx)

when non-serious needs:
"your party member xxx asks you of some water"
"your party member xxx complains about hunger"

when serious needs:
"your party member xxx looks quite thirsty !!"
"your party member xxx looks starving !!"

assuming magical items which have effect of 'slow digestion' or/and 'slow thirst' (as Extended version had) as well will be implemented in the future, the problem should be soften to the degree of easy handling in mid to late game.

Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:48 pm
by krmos
zefz wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:33 pm
Local multiplayer is actually implemented in the code, but disabled in the release. I think local multiplayer would be difficult to balance (more players = easier game right?).

If this is a feature players actually want I can add it into the game (I thought nobody used it, I myself haven't at least ;) )
Sorry for the delay ;). for my part, I often played local multiplayer with friends. it was funny (so I want it !). it is true that the game became easier. But if the score is not listed in the same place, it's not important. the only thing I've noticed is that when a player dies, it's less interesting to continue. That's why I proposed to add the option "one dead = all dead" However, I understand that it unbalances the game compared to the 1 player mode. But it was the only roguelike that offered split screen mode. I think the idea of ​​the mercenaries is really cool. It's a great game! Good luck and thank you for the answer :).


Re: Local multiplayer

Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:39 pm
by zefz
This feature is added in version 1.5.0